Shouldn't women be allowed as ministers/pastors?

< STRONG Yes, but men are preferred leaders... if they die or if women are up for it, they can be leaders too.

While it is true that there were many male leaders in the OT and NT, there were many exceptions for women to be leaders in the same positions as man.

You have Miriam (priest), Deborah (judge), the Samaritan woman of the well, the women who demanded property inheritance, the Proverbs woman who bought and sold property and did other businesses, the woman who drove a peg through the head of a man and got praised, and the women who told about Jesus' death.

For more details about these women, please look for a discussion of them in the other arguments in this debate below.

With so many praises of these positions, some of which were of God's approval (for example, the women who demanded property inheritance), it seems apparently clear that God was OK with women in high positions. But it also seems apparent, again, that men were preferred, but again, God was not angry when women took power.

So it is OK if women took church leadership roles, amongst other leadership roles.

< STRONG No. God made man first and then woman in the garden of Eden. The order of creation is important here.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve. He put Adam in the garden and gave him the authority to name all the animals. Afterwards, God made Eve as a helper to Adam. Paul refers to the order of creation in his epistle to Timothy when he discusses the relationship between men and women in the church context.

- CARM http://www.carm.org/christianity/miscellaneous-topics/should-women-be-pastors-and-elders

< But the Holy Spirit is also called the Helper (like how Eve was called helper to Adam) and so is no less God than Jesus and the Father.

Likewise, the woman is no less than the man.

< What about Deborah and Phoebe?
Deborah was a judge in Israel over men (Judges 4:4). (Please look for the argument entitled "Yes. Deborah was a judge/prophet/leader in Israel over men" in this debate for more details about Deborah being a judge.)
As for Phoebe, she played an important role in the church at Cenchrea (Romans 16).
< STRONG What Paul is saying is not against women working in the social or political context... it's only for church structure.
There is no doubt that women supported Paul in many areas and were great helpers in the church (Act 2:17; 18:24; 21:8). But what Paul is speaking of in 1 Tim. 2 is the relationship between men and women in the church structure, not in a social or political context.
- CARM http://www.carm.org/christianity/miscellaneous-topics/should-women-be-pastors-and-elders
< STRONG If God allowed Deborah to rule over men in the political arena, then surely God would allow women church leadership positions
With such power over men in the political realm, it wouldn't make sense to not have that power in the church structure.

< STRONG No. Book of Corinthians says the head of woman is man.

1 Corinthians 11,14

1 Cor 11:3: But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

“Head” clearly refers not to “source” but to “authority” (see Grudem, 1985, pp. 38-59). Therefore, God intends for women to be subordinate to men in worship. Corinthian women were obviously removing their veils and stepping forward in the assembly to lead with their Spirit-imparted, miraculous capabilities, i.e., prophecy (12:10; 14:31) and prayer (14:14-15). Such activity was a direct violation of the subordination principle, articulated by Paul in chapter fourteen. In chapter eleven, he focused on the propriety of females removing the cultural symbol of submission.

- Apologetic Press http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2694

Click here for more on this topic.

>> STRONG No. Book of Timothy says no.

1Ti 2:11 Women should learn in silence and all humility.
1Ti 2:12 I do not allow them to teach or to have authority over men; they must keep quiet.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was created first, and then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And it was not Adam who was deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and broke God's law.
1Ti 2:15 But a woman will be saved through having children, if she perseveres in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

The premier passage in the New Testament that treats the role of women in worship is 1 Timothy 2:8-15. The remote context of the book is: proper behavior in the life of the church (1 Timothy 3:15). The immediate context of chapter two is worship, specifically prayer (1 Timothy 2:1,8). The context does not limit the worship to the church assembly, but includes the general life of the church.

- Apologetic Press
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2694

< STRONG Notice, he doesn’t say, “I will not allow a woman to be a pastor,” nor does he say, “I will not allow a woman to be ordained to ministry.”
He says, “I will not allow a woman to have authority over men or to teach.” Therein lies the problem. The verb Paul uses in this passage that is translated “authority” occurs only once in the entire New Testament in this particular context. Because this word is only used once in the New Testament and rarely shows up in other Greek literature of that period that survives today, we’re not exactly sure what that word means. Even so, we struggle to be obedient to the guidelines and the restrictions for church government that are set forth in the New Testament. I would say that Paul prohibits a woman from having some kind of authority. As I study the patterns of that in the New Testament, I think that what Paul is saying is that women can be involved in all kinds of functions of ministry in the church but that the role of juridical authority or of governing authority is not to be held by women. I would add that the overwhelming majority of New Testament scholars through the years have agreed with the position I have just stated. I know that in certain denominations, ordination means that a person has been given governing authority in the church. If the apostle prohibits that and if he prohibits it for all generations, then obviously the practice today or yesterday or tomorrow would be inconsistent with the apostolic authority and would therefore be inconsistent with the authority of Christ.
- R.C. Sproul
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/should-woman-hold-office-church/

< STRONG Yes. The first people to see Jesus and "evangelize" were women.

They were Mary Magdalene and such. Such evangelism is basically ministering.

>> But that's not the same as pastoring a church.
Doesn't apply.
< STRONG Pastors are not the same as evangelists.
Pastors build up a church with preaching, while evangelists spread the word among non-believers.

< STRONG Yes. The Samaritan woman at the well went back and evangelized about Jesus.

Again such evangelism is basically ministering.

Joh 4:28 Then the woman left her water jar, went back to the town, and said to the people there,
Joh 4:29 "Come and see the man who told me everything I have ever done. Could he be the Messiah?"
Joh 4:30 So they left the town and went to Jesus. (GNB)

>> But that's not the same as pastoring at a church.
Doesn't apply.
< STRONG Pastors are not the same as evangelists.
Pastors build up a church with preaching, while evangelists spread the word among non-believers. (from another argument)

< STRONG Yes. Deborah was a judge/prophet/leader in Israel over men.

This is an exceptionally high position for a person to get.

Please read for details:

Jdg 4:4: Now Deborah, the wife of Lappidoth, was a prophet, and she was serving as a judge for the Israelites at that time.

Jdg 4:5: She would sit under a certain palm tree between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the people of Israel would go there for her decisions.
Jdg 4:6: One day she sent for Barak son of Abinoam from the city of Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, "The LORD, the God of Israel, has given you this command: 'Take ten thousand men from the tribes of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead them to Mount Tabor.'"

However, she even admits the oddity of a woman winning a battle through God. Nonetheless, God had NO issues with this....

Jdg 4:9: She answered, "All right, I will go with you, but you won't get any credit for the victory, because the LORD will hand Sisera over to a woman." So Deborah set off for Kedesh with Barak. (GNB)

Note: Sisera is a male leader.

So as you can see, Deborah had a very high leadership position.

< Yes. Miriam, Moses and Aaron's sister, was a prophetess.

Ex 15:20: Then Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women went out after her with tambourines and dancing. (GNB)

>> Notice how women were behind her, not men.
This shows that she still is inferior.

< That makes no difference.
For one thing, she's dancing with a tambourine, probably in female style. It was unlikely that the men would get up and dance like that. And second, she is still a prophetess... a prophetess is an extraordinary position.

>> No. Paul teaches that the bishop/overseer is to be the husband of one wife.

... who manages his household well and has a good reputation (1 Tim. 3:2-5, 7). Deacons must be "men of dignity" (1 Tim. 3:8). Paul then speaks of women in verse 11 and their obligation to receive instruction. Then in verse 12, Paul says "Let deacons be husbands of one wife..." Again, in Titus 1:5-7, Paul says, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward..." Notice that Paul interchanges the word 'elder' and 'overseer'.

In each case, the one who is an elder, deacon, bishop, or overseer is instructed to be male. He is the husband of one wife, responsible, able to "exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict" (Titus 1:9). We see no command for the overseers to be women. On the contrary, women are told to be "dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things" (1 Tim. 3:11). Why is it that it is the men who are singled out as the overseers? It is because of the created order of God that Paul references (Gen. 1-2; 1 Tim. 2:12-14). This is not merely a social custom that fell away with ancient Israel.

- CARM http://www.carm.org/christianity/miscellaneous-topics/should-women-be-pastors-and-elders

>> No. In the Old Testament with over 700 mentions of priests, every single one was a male.

There is not one instance of a female priest. This is significant because priests were ordained by God to hold a very important office of ministering the sacrifices. This was not the job of women.
Therefore, from what I see in Genesis 1-2, 1 Timothy 2, and Titus 1, the normal and proper person to hold the office of elder/pastor is to be a man.

- CARM http://www.carm.org/christianity/miscellaneous-topics/should-women-be-pastors-and-elders

< But Miriam, Moses' sister, was a prophet.
Isn't that a high position?
Please read for more details the argument entitled: Yes. Miriam, Moses and Aaron's sister, was a prophetess.

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